Sarah Lesko: Wow, can you believe it's been 4 years since 2016?

Kara Goucher: No, it's so crazy how much my relationship with running has changed since then, how much I've changed as a person since then, and yet I can still feel how bad I wanted it that day, and how much I loved my preparation for that race. I can still feel it all, it's still very clear in my mind.

SL: Regardless of the time on that day, we feel that was one of your most amazing efforts. I was wondering your take on that; how do you rank 2016 in terms of effort?

KG: I'm really proud of that race. I'd been coming from a lot of down years and life stress and had to claw my way back. Oiselle believed in me, but besides Oiselle and my family I don't think anyone else believed I had a shot.

SL: They didn't even interview you. You weren't in the conversation for top 10!

KG: There was hardly any media in the lead-up, I wasn't invited to the press conference. I had finished third four years earlier and it was like, “Oh, that's nice, she made it back.” To be fair, I had struggled, but I knew I was in really good shape. I had no idea what the other women would bring, but I knew that I had gotten myself into a position that I was just as fit as I had been in the past. I thought if the weather was cool, I could run between 2:25 and 2:26. Obviously we ended up changing our race strategy because of the heat -- originally our race strategy was to go with any move, but with the heat we decided that was way too risky. But I don't think I made any mistakes. I think I shut down a little bit the last few miles. I’d imagined I’d be top 3 or I’d be 24th, I'd never imagined that I'd be 4th. Those last few miles were not enjoyable and I almost didn't want to finish because I had enjoyed training so much and it was just over. I felt like minus those last three miles giving up a little bit, I ran really well, I didn't make any mistakes, and I got beat by three Olympians.

SL: Yeah, three top-10 Olympians!

KG: They ran so well at the Olympics, we sent the top team in the world that year.

SL: What was it that helped you summon that effort, do you think?

KG: I think it was really re-finding my love of the sport. I honestly give so much credit to Oiselle: the community allowed me to run for all the right reasons. Coming back to Boulder and running under Mark and Heather with the history we had together, I felt like I was so recharged. Also in 2015 going public with the Alberto stuff helped me so much because I felt like that was holding me back as a person. After that it was just no longer weight I was carrying around any more. So the combo of signing with Oiselle -- which is such a supportive community that cared about me as a human and not as a performer --and then being back in Boulder with people I had trusted and had such a good relationship with and they knew me long before...I think the combo of all that helped me find my love for it again.

SL: Did you use a mantra during the race at all?

KG: I just kept saying to myself "I belong." It had been a long time since anyone considered me anthing threatening, and I just kept telling myself, "I deserve to be here, I belong here. I am capable."

SL: Was there an adversity moment in the 2016 race that you can distinctly remember? And how you dealt with it?

KG: I mean, the last lap was difficult because I had no idea that Shalane was struggling. I was running side by side with Des Linden and we couldn't even see Shalane and Amy; I knew one of us was getting that last spot. I was def like, shit, I would rather be up against any other athlete in the U.S. than Des Linden over the last six miles. I didn't concede to her, but I was like, I wish this was anybody else. She put some distance on me and I kept gut checking. I thought. “Okay, I could catch up to her. I could throw down a hard mile.” But I know my body well enough to know that at that point I’m done, there'll be nothing left in the tank. And so, I gotta hope now that she pressed a bit too early. When we had about three miles to go it was clear she wasn't coming back to me; in fact, she was gone at that point.

Those were the toughest miles because there was no hope left. I couldn't see any of the women in front of me and I’d look behind and I couldn't see anyone. That was a long lonely last three miles, I was holding back tears.

SL: I think we all were! Actually, I think I was crying when the gun went off. I think I cried for the whole marathon!

KG: My sister too…she was crying the whole time.

SL: It was crazy. Just a total spontaneous freakout of emotions for me when the gun went off, and I started sobbing, and then I looked at Sally and then she started sobbing, too, and then we just had to walk away from everyone. I was like, “I don't even know what's happening right now!”

KG: It’s just the power of everyone's hopes and dreams. It’s crazy and it's so beautiful; you know you're going to see something beautiful but you're also going to see something heartbreaking and everything in between. I think marathons are one of the most emotional experiences whether you're a runner or a fan, whether it goes bad or great, so much has gone into it. That’s one of the things that's so amazing and beautiful and mysterious: it's so much put into this one time and you can't go back three days later and do it again. It’s such a complex event, it makes me so emotional whether I’m racing or not.

SL: I'm sure I'll do more crying next week! How do you feel about going to Atlanta as a spectator?

KG: I’m super excited! I think two years ago I wouldn't have been able to handle it. There was still a part of me that was thinking, “I should be trying to do this.” But I got a lot of peace running the Houston Marathon last year, even though I didn't get to finish. I really realized that I still love running. I'm still going to set goals for myself, but my desire to be the best in the world is just not there anymore. So that's just been a relief for me. I’ve always been a huge fan of the sport. I was always fans of my competitors, so to be able to go and watch without any feeling of wishing it was me (I really don't feel that at all), I feel relief that I’m not racing. The men's race will be great, but the women's race in particular is going to be just fantastic, I’m very excited to watch it, and I’m nervous because I want about eight women to make the team.

SL: I want to hear your rundown of the field. We know that Amy withdrew, so how are you looking at the racers?

KG: I'm really disappointed for Amy. I’m sure there are some people who are sad for her and some who are breathing a little sigh of relief because she's one of our greatest marathoners ever. She won the Olympic Trials in 2016, she was third in the world the next year, and then she ran 2:21 the next spring. So she's one of the greatest runners in American history and that's a huge loss.

Molly Huddle is probably America’s best distance runner of all time. I feel like with all the shoe technology we haven't really seen her on a level playing field in the marathon, so I’m excited to see what she can do when she has a carbon fiber shoe. I'm really excited about Emily Sisson; I think she has the right mind-frame, the right strength to run a really great marathon.

Jordan Hasay is obviously just so fast, and as long as she's healthy, she's a factor. Des Linden is so seasoned, and she's so smart, and she knows herself so well, and she's not afraid to have it come down to those final miles. She doesn't feel the need to push early on, which is always an interesting trick to have in your bag. Then Sara Hall has seemed to put her career together at the very perfect moment. Everything is culminating; her last 18 months have been flawless leading to this moment. There’s three women from NAZ Elite that have a chance: Aliphine, Kellyn, and Steph. That’s such an interesting dynamic - they all have a legitimate shot and they all train together, so they each know each other's strengths and weaknesses. I'm sure I'm forgetting someone, there's just so many people - it's so exciting right now! Oh, and Sally Kipyego! Sally Kipyego is an Olympic silver medalist and, in her first marathon back from having her baby, ran 2:25. There are so many storylines and so many good people and, again, I'm so relieved I don't have to race that deep of a field!

SL: When do you think the race will get real? Because the course is decently hilly, so when do you think that's going to happen where it’s suddenly: “Now the race is on?"

KG: We have a couple American runners who like to push, and I think Sara Hall or even Jordan Hasay to a certain extent like to be up front and like to be in control. I can see it going fairly quickly; but I can also see two races playing out, where there's a race pushing from the front and then there's a race of people maybe a little bit more seasoned who are a little bit more worried about how the effects of the hills are going add up over time. I mean, ideally they'd all just run together the whole time, but I feel like there will be some people who like to push earlier on and there's some people who are so secure with waiting that they won't go with that move.

SL: The 10-day forecast right now looks amazing: low 30s, high of 46 and partial sun, so that looks ideal. What does that make you think in terms of preparation and what people are going to wear?  

KG: That’s good, especially on a hilly course. I think those are good conditions: it's a little on the cooler side, but it's not freezing and so I think we'll see normal outfits. We might see headbands and arm warmers or a hat at the beginning, but in general I think that lends itself to just normal apparel. It’s going to be a really difficult marathon no matter what because of all the elevation gain, but I think had it been really hot it could've been a miserable experience.

SL: From all appearances, Atlanta Track Club is killing the preparation. They’re doing such a good job, I could not be more impressed!

KG: It seems like they are really nailing it with organization and support, like they're setting a new standard. I thought that Houston did an incredible job eight years ago, and it's not that LA did a bad job, but there were certainly some hiccups along the way. Atlanta has really ironed those out those problems, and they have to, they have such a bigger field!

SL: What does the final week look like for racers? I know you can't put yourself in anyone's head but like what’s this week like?

KG: For me it was always about staying low key, relaxed and happy. That’s where your family and close friends come in. It is stressful, you only get one shot and it's one day, and there are so many factors. I think Jared Ward described it very well, as he said it's such a fragile experience, there are so many things that could happen on that one day. I was sick both in 2012 and 2016 so I was always worried about that. Your mind can play tricks on you when you're in taper mode: your fitness, being really diligent about sleep and diet and rest, it's tough. It’s definitely a battle and anyone who says, “Oh, it's easy,” I think they're kinda lying. I think it's the longest week of your life! Because you know you need to taper and you know you need those days of rest but you just want to get out and run it! So there's a mixture of excitement and nerves, and I always felt just a little feeling of sadness that the segment and preparation were coming to an end. I always really enjoyed the buildup, so there was always a bit of sadness - whether it goes great or bad this experience is coming to an end.

SL: Do you have thoughts about people who go straight to marathon after college vs. working their way up through the distances over time to get there? It seems like there's a couple ways to approach getting to the marathon.

KG: I think everyone is an individual. For me it didn't make sense to go to the marathon right away. I was having problems staying healthy being a 5k athlete, and so there was no way that made sense for me. Also I had things I wanted to accomplish on the track and I had the opportunity to chase those dreams: running under 15, making an Olympic and World team. I had the financial backing to do so, so for me it was the absolutely right progression to keep honing in my speed and getting more experience on the lower end before I moved up. But some people they want to go there quicker. I do think that there is a lot of wisdom that comes through aging in running; it's not that a young marathoner doesn't have the wisdom, or that they can't do it, but I do think the marathon is one of those events that the more years you have on your feet, just training, it seems to be the more consistent you can be. So it will be interesting to see these younger athletes going into the marathon sooner, what it looks like for them 10 years down the road: Are they still improving? Are they done after 10 years? We saw that with Sammy Wanjiru who won the Olympic marathon in 2008. He went to it so young, but he so sadly passed away in an accident at age 24. I feel like now we're starting to see younger marathoners in the U.S. so it'll be interesting to see 10 years down the road if the athletes are still improving.

SL: I feel like we can't have a talk about the Trials without talking about the shoes for just a minute. How are you thinking about it now? I'm just so tired of talking about them.

KG: I’m really tired of it, too! But I’ve also promised athletes I will fight for them. So I’m tired of it, but I feel like until there is a level playing field I can’t stop. And I don't feel like it is even yet with the new ruling: there’s one company that has a clear 2-3 year leap on everyone. To have to produce a shoe to the masses for four months before your athletes can use it actually continues that pattern of one company being ahead of the rest. So I’m frustrated. I worry about people like Molly Huddle who had a hard time adjusting to the shoe, and I honestly just feel really sad.

It’s so sad that one of the great things about our sport was the history and integrity, and we’ve never had a sport of haves and have nots: If you have a pair of shoes, you can run. I feel like this is changing our sport for the future. I’ve actually been having anxiety attacks about it because I’m so tired of it. I also feel like it potentially affected the outcome of the 2016 Trials. I’m not saying someone did something wrong or someone did something right, I’m just saying that now that we know the research, without a doubt the shoe affects the outcome. That doesn't mean I would have been third, it just means the race could have potentially been different. I just never want that feeling for anyone else. I was able to move on from that race. You know, it was hard because of course I got fourth, but I was able to move on because I was at peace that I ran the best race I was capable of. Now, four years later, I think about it a lot, and I just don't want that for anybody else. Also for the athletes that were on the team, I don't want people questioning their results. It's not good for them either! They are talented athletes that worked really hard to be there and then people are like, “Oh, but what shoe were they wearing?” I just feel like I'm super super sick of it, but at the same time I still don't feel like we’re at a point where we’re at a level playing field, and for me that's a problem.

SL: So you're speaking with a panel on Friday, 1pm with Sally, Alison Desir, and Mary Wittenberg; do you know much about the panel?

KG: I think we're going to be talking about women in sport, women in running. I’m just excited to be with a group of cool women!

SL: Who are you excited to rub elbows with in Atlanta? I mean, everyone in the sport is gonna be there are there people that you meet up with that you're excited to see again?

KG: I'm excited to see everybody, to experience it from a different side. In the past, there was always a twinge of nervousness about protecting my space, and I don't have to protect any space this time, so I'm excited. I’m really excited to watch the women race especially, the women I've been trying to fight for behind the scenes and I'm excited to be on the panel. I think Clean Sport Collective is going to do a little shakeout run on Saturday morning. I’m excited to be without my own nerves, just like finally be in it and see it, watch the race unfold. I’m going to cheer and give people encouragement and give information - there's like eight women I want to make it so I’ll be giving them all information. I’m gonna be telling them how far away people are front and back and how people look and… no one is safe, basically I will help all of these women. I really don't have a favorite, so I’ll just help all of them!

I know I’m going to be emotional because I know what these women have put into it so I know I’m going to be devastated for a half dozen women. I’ll be emotional but I’m just going to have to push through it and I’ll have no voice Saturday night when we’re partying!

SL: Yeah, you don’t need a voice for dancing!

KG: I just am excited where American distance running is at. I’m excited about all the women that get to participate that earned their spot there, and that so many people get to have this incredible experience. It’s going to be a magical experience seeing 511 women line up; that's going to be something to see and something to experience - a bit of history that we’re going to look back on and be like, “Wow, was this a huge boom for running.”

SL: Can’t wait!! Great job, Kara, you've been killing it with your podcast and just being out there. You’re incredible.

KG: Aww, thank you. I’m keeping it in a fine line right now, but I think once this is over I’m going to take a break. I’m just really excited to be with good energy people in Atlanta!